I’ve got an issue I could use some opinions on. Clearly I’ve played in a lot of different bands. Many of these bands, I’ve written songs for, or helped to write songs for. Some of those songs were really good and really only recorded live at shows, but never copyrighted, as far as I can tell.
I’ve done some research and it sounds like all you have to do is record the music and it’s copyrighted. But who owns it? Do the musicians collectively own it in this case? Or is it necessary to actually fill out some paperwork and submit a copy of the recording to someone?
My issue is that all of the songs I’ve written with other bands will just die away, unless they are brought back by one of us. Many of the songs, I did most of the writing, and I feel personally attached to and would like to play. Of course, I would always give credit where credit is due, but suppose I record those songs in a studio with another band to be put on an album and sold? Do I have to pay royalties to the guys in the band I was playing with when the song was first played live and recorded?
Hopefully someone out there knows a little bit more about it.
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I have no idea, but I wanted to comment because you still let me use echo over here.
if i’ve learned anything at all, i’ve learned that if you act like you own it, people will treat you like you do.
Its actually quite simple. Walt Disney’s Decapitated Head owns the copyrights to all of your existing material, and the material that you have yet to create. If you wish to record music using materials that you created with previous band members, but in studio with new musicians, you must first have the previous musicians killed. Then it just a simple matter of photographing the corpses with mousketeer hats on (this pleases Walt Disney’s Decapitated Head) and sending the prints and negatives to Disney’s legal department in Orlando.
/hope this helps!
the real question is: Who wrote the song? If you’re the sole songwriter then that’s your song. Regardless of who you recorded it with. If a song you wrote is recorded with Band X, then Band X would receive payment for that song only if you sell copies of that recording. You can record that same song with Band Y, but the members of Band Y would only receive payment if you sold copies of that particular recording.
So let’s say that Band Z hears a copy of your song recorded with Band Y and Band Z decides to do a cover of that song for their upcoming album. If you wrote that song, then Band Z would have to pay you (the songwriter) for the rights to record and you would receive royalties for that recorded song determined by the number of copies sold.
Here’s an easy way to establish copyright (I’m assuming this still works). If it’s a song that you are 100% certain you wrote, then write the lyrics down on a piece of paper. Put the lyrics in an envelope, seal it, put a stamp on it, and mail it to yourself. You should also write the name of the song somewhere on the outside of the envelope (either below your mailing address or return address). When the song lyrics arrive by mail, file it away and do not open the envelope. If you open the envelope all bets are off. That should establish a copyright.
Obviously you could establish your own publishing rights but I have no idea of the cost or paperwork. In this scenario above you’ve spent the cost of a stamp.
confused yet?
I hear Band Z is opening for Van Halen in two weeks
one hand clapping
oh man, i don’t have any idea what’s going on.
I’ll preface this by saying I am not a lawyer. I’m not giving legal advice but this is generally (from my understanding) how music copyrights work.
OK here’s the skinny as far as I know (and the shit is complicated). There’s two types of copyrights - performance and recording. I can record a song in the public domain for free - and then I can copyright the performance. If someone plays my version of that song on the radio I get a royalty. If I record a song NOT in the public domain then I have to pay that artist a fee to record it, then when it gets played on the radio I make performance rights and he/she makes a cut for writing it. I am 90% sure that is how it works. Obviously even if a song is in the public domain (All of the Carter Family songs, Woody Guthrie, etc..) you still have to credit the original artist.
Now, to do it the legal and ‘holds up in court’ sort of way:
In order to copyright one of your songs you have to join a publisher like ASCAP. That’s the most popular and widely used I think but theres also BMI. Maybe you can join both? I dunno. Anyway you join ascap as either a writer or publisher and through them you publish and copyright your songs with the government. Obviously you’d file differently if it was your own song versus someone elses. If it was someone elses you were covering and its not in the public domain you have to file for permission from them, agreements have to be signed, etc. Otherwise your ass gets sued when they hear you on the radio.
You’d be surprised what is in the public domain - some pretty awesome shit. The poormans copyright of recording it and putting your name on the CD doesnt really hold up in court as far as I can tell. Granted, the band I was in during high school didnt copyright their stuff and it’s not likely some douchebag is going to cover it and make a billion dollars. But since I didn’t copyright it then, he could cover it without permission and make a billion dollars. For me to make a cent off of it would require a long, expensive legal battle which I probably wouldnt win even though I wrote the damn song.
Moral: It doesnt take much to join a publisher and copyright your stuff. If it even worries you a little it’s a good idea. It’s a lot of pain in the ass paperwork but compared to allt he other shit you have to deal with to release a recording it’s really insignificant.
you have to first decide who wrote the song, and figure out percentages (25% each for 4 band members for instance) if it was cowritten…then you and all the other co-writers need to be affiliated with an organization like BMI or ASCAP (BMI is free, i think ASCAP charges a fee)…i think that makes it a little more officially “copywritten” although the official copywriting involves sending to Washington i believe. this allows you to get royalties for any airplay though…
What he said
What do you guys think happens if you put your own material up on myspace? Does that count as “published”? I know with things like flicker you sign away a good deal of your copy rights, I wonder if that goes for music as well…
Wow! Thanks, everyone. I’ll do a little more research. I’ll even buy you all a drink when I make my first billion off of squiddy’s high school ballad about his first squid crush.
Oh, crap. Good point Byard. Anyone know the answer to that? I bet it’s buried in legal fine print somewhere.
Myspace does not = published. In fact, Myspace might even reserve rights to use your music for their own promotion (gotta read that agreement you signed when you joined myspace that you blew through and clicked ‘Accept’ on):
http://www.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=misc.terms
6.1
“By displaying or publishing (”posting”) any Content on or through the MySpace Services, you hereby grant to MySpace a limited license to use, modify, delete from, add to, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on or through the MySpace Services, including without limitation distributing part or all of the MySpace Website in any media formats and through any media channels, except Content marked “private” will not be distributed outside the MySpace Website. This limited license does not grant MySpace the right to sell or otherwise distribute your Content outside of the MySpace Services.”
And it goes on from there in 6.2, 6.3, etc
@13 I already had my ‘missed connections’ crush (find it if you dare) - she rocked my squid brain.
Byard - I’m almost positive that flickr doesn’t claim to your work like Myspace and Facebook do. You have the option to choose under which kind of copyright it gets uploaded. (always could be wrong, tho.)
Yes, that is correct, Chartreuse.
ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC are “PROs” or performing rights organizations. They track the playback of - and collect fees on, the usage of the sound recordings of their members and pay said members performance royalties on their copyrights.
Sorry Squid, but not only do you not have to join a publisher like ASCAP to copyright a song, but ASCAP isn’t even a publisher. Not trying to be a dick, but some of the info in your post is just flat out wrong.
Music publishers are concerned with the underlying composition of the sound recordings and collect fees and pay royalties based on those copyrights.
The copyright is automatic (google “Berne + copyright”) and is made stronger by taking steps to protect it e.g., registering the sound recording with the US Copyright Office. There is a lot of good information at the US Copyright Office website and you can download the forms, etc.:
http://www.copyright.gov/register/sound.html
Specifically, see circular 56:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ56.html
I’ll warn you up front, it’s best to tackle this stuff without the help of mind altering substances. Some of it is confusing (the sound recording vs. the underlying work or whether you can register a “collection” of songs on one form and pay one fee).
Contrary to popular belief, the envelope thing is useless (sorry Shaun).
To the original question, if there is no written agreement within a band then the band is considered an equal partnership and that applies to everything. Of course, once something hits the court room and lawyers start arguing, anything can happen.
I’d say go ahead and do whatever you want with those songs. if you make any real money off of them and any of your former band mates contact you and want to discuss copyrights, either pony up or get a lawyer
I was shootin’ from the hip TTCTW. I gots no problems being wrong.
thanks for straightening us all out. i for one appreciate it!
Thanks, Trying… are you a lawyer?
A couple of years ago I sent myself an empty, unsealed envelope. I’ve been waiting for an opportunity to stick something in it, seal it up, and claim that I’m psychic.
To copyright something, just create it. This blog comment, right now? It’s copyright me. I don’t have to do a thing — it’s mine, end of story. That sketch I made on a napkin at Maya the other night? Copyright moi. If I want to get fancy about it, I could register that copyright with the LoC, which we do with every issue of VQR. That takes a year or so, costs some bucks, and provides the advantage of giving you instant winination in court. It’s worth the effort for approximately nobody who is getting their copyright advice from blog comments.
I must be invisible. Every post I’ve made lately people always ignore my disclaimer and go jumping on my back *shrug*.
I’ll quote myself. First sentence, first post:
“I’ll preface this by saying I am not a lawyer. I’m not giving legal advice but this is generally (from my understanding) how music copyrights work. OK here’s the skinny as far as I know (and the shit is complicated).”
- squidtank (6/12/08)
I appreciate the info, this is why (if I was a musician) I would get other people I trusted to take care of this stuff. And NewmaN you’re more than welcome to cover my songs. Remind me to bring you the lyrics (that I did not write, thank you!) to ‘Funky Butt Lovin’”.
So, I take it there are a few musicians out there? How do you guys feel about those old songs you co-wrote with old broken-up bands getting played by new existing bands, that you may not be in? Assuming no one’s really making any money off of it.
My personal opinion is that I wouldn’t care as long as I was given credit whenever someone asked, where’d that song come from, or if it started making money, I’d want my cut.
Newman, can’t say I’ve ever really been in that situation until recently. All of my old bands are completely defunct, and I have boxes and boxes and boxes of unsold CDs sitting around in my basement. However, the last band I toured with pretty hard a couple of years ago is still kicking it, and their debut CD is getting ready to come out which contains a song that I cowrote (well, actually wrote before I joined the band, then I told them they could rewrite the lyrics and have at it). I’m still waiting for the song to be registered with BMI by the cowriter, and I’m following it closely to make sure! Not that I don’t trust the guys in the band, it’s more just looking out for myself. You know how things get missed or “forgotten”.
squid - I read your disclaimer, but you followed it up with 4 paragraphs that were written like you knew what you were talking about - and clearly, you didn’t. It always bugs me when people give a disclaimer like that, but then go on to write and/or speak like they know what they’re talking about. And really, if you had used the google for even a couple of minutes, you would have known how wrong you were. Anyway…nothing personal, just a pet peeve of mine that I should probably work on in therapy
NewmaN - of all the stuff that’s guaranteed to end bands and friendships both, you’ve picked a doozy. It’s often a very touchy subject - especially if a band member quits or the band breaks up on bad terms. Personally, I’m somewhat mixed about the whole subject, but it really depends on the circumstances. Good circumstances, I don’t generally mind. Bad circumstances, those guys better not let me catch them playing anything even close to anything I wrote!
Folks in bands - treating a band like a business entity can be difficult - especially when your band mates are your best friends. It can also be detrimental to a band if everyone starts talking business as it can be a really polarizing subject and can lead to all kinds of bad feelings. However, it’s generally a good idea to establish some very basic guidelines including how the songwriting gets carved up and what signal is used to indicate that the van is currently in use (assuming it’s not already rocking).
Yeah, I know what you mean. I had a few songs that I wrote all the chords to, and someone else sung. The problem was that the words were never written down, nor were they ever the same, except for the verses. He just sorta improvised the lyrics every time. I’ve actually gone back and rewritten those songs with actual lyrics. I’d like to play them, as they were really good, catchy songs, that I’d hate to see die.
Maybe I should just talk to those guys and see how they feel about it. I’ll probably play the songs anyway, but at least I made an effort.
NewmaN - Go for it.
If all you’re talking about are lyrics to music you wrote and you’ve since written other lyrics, I’d say go for it. There shouldn’t be any hard feelings or copyright claims.
Now if you’ve rewritten the lyrics but kept the same vocal melodies, that’s a bit different.
If you’re really worried about it, It probably wouldn’t hurt to let your old band mates know that you’re using songs you wrote back when you played with them - as a courtesy.
sounds like it’s time to consult the father-in-law lawyer. I’ll try to post the legal response.
the legal response
/beat you to it.
Great discussion. Now if only I had some musical talent
Clever English!
Newman & I discussed the complications with copyrights and all, and I think the best way to look at these writings and recordings is like Open Source. The lyrics may be someones own writings but the only way the song came together is with the colaboration of everyone working on it. The song may be good, possibly great when it first came out, but it can (and should) be improved.
These songs were not written for stardom, they were written for the enjoyment of playing them, and play them the band(s) should. Play them untill you get approached from an studio to record it, then you can decide how important it is to obtain a copyright. Untill then play the songs as best you can, and be encouraged to find help on playing it better. Remember… the recording is never drunk.